In the latest episode of The Ride Along, hosts Brad Lowery and Matt Brading sit down again with veteran inspector Jon Bolton for a deep dive into the pros and cons surrounding PEX piping. Jon presents lawsuits, scientific studies, and real-world damage reports that he’s encountered in his many years as an inspector.
The conversation gets heated but stays grounded in what matters most: protecting your business and informing your clients. For inspectors who are scaling and refining report practices, this episode opens up crucial conversations about disclaimers, liability, and professional ethics.
Plus – you’ll get a sneak peek at Matt’s talk at a Dallas building science meeting and why inspectors should get plugged into their local BS & Beer chapter.
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Transcript
Brad Lowery
All right, guys, thanks for joining us again here on the ride along today. We are talking with Mr. John Bolton in the third of a three part series, unintentional three part series about PEX plumbing. And this is going to really kind of put a bow tie a little bow on the conversation. But we appreciate everybody that’s chimed in on this. I mean, this is something that has been getting all kinds of interest Matt.
Matt Brading
Maybe. I mean, it’s a hot topic and I think that, you everyone has a bunch of opinions and to be honest with you, I think, I don’t know how everyone else feels, but I have learned quite a bit from people commenting on it and chiming in on it and other people’s opinions. So, I mean, I think that’s what this is all about. We should keep going.
Brad Lowery
Now I definitely agree, but John, thanks for jumping on. This whole thing kicked off when you and I talked, think, Inspection Fuel last year about PEX plumbing, man. And people have some very strong opinions on this.
Jon Bolton
man, you are not kidding. It’s like, you guys, here’s where I come from. I learned something and I brought it to people. And I said, hey, brothers and sisters, inspectors all over the place, this is some stuff I learned and you might want to look at it. And every time I do, man, the attacks are just brutal sometimes. you’re all laughing because you’ve all heard them. And some of them are just rank, extremely unprofessional and I’m like this doesn’t make any sense and I’m just trying to tell you something.
Matt Brading
So that is the internet though. mean, like, you know, I mean, there, can’t put an opinion out there without somebody giving some ridiculous uneducated opinion on it. Look, the fact of the matter is we can have a difference of opinion. And I think that that is good. I encourage differences opinions and for us to talk about this kind of things and see other sides of it. But without like somebody just kind of coming out uneducated and just throwing a whole bunch of nonsense at us. But that happens. I deal with that on a regular basis.
Brad Lowery
It does. Now it does. But before we get into sharing opinions here one more time again, we want to hear y’alls. We want to hear y’alls keep it respectful y’all seriously. I mean, there’s we’re all here to help each other. And honestly, the position of this show is to be as helpful as possible to home inspectors in this industry that want to be successful. Okay, there’s all kinds of drama online. We’ve actually taken some flack for not getting involved in it. We won’t. I’m just going to tell you all right now. We don’t right? We’re here to be as helpful as possible.
Matt Brading
Yeah. Of course, of course.
Brad Lowery
To as many people as possible. but we’re gonna kick it off real quick with the drink of the day because John, I got you hooked on something man. And you’re welcome. That’s all I’m gonna say what are you sipping on?
Jon Bolton
You did and you know, I’ve got to send you that video. I don’t know if Matt knows the story, but when we’re doing the you don’t know the story. OK, so we’re doing the fireside chat thing and I know you. I listen to the show right? So I called Brad and I said, hey dude, what’s your you know what you drink? What’s your favorite drink? Because he was going to come over here to my place and I wanted to be the hostess with the most of right and he says.
Brad Lowery
You do man.
Matt Brading
I don’t know the story. I don’t know.
Jon Bolton
In old fashioned and I’m like, okay, I’ll figure it out. I’ve never had one before ever in my life. So I literally go to ABC Liquor and I go, I have a friend coming over his favorite is old fashioned, how do I make them? And he goes, well, do you know? And I go, no, I know nothing. He says, okay, you need this, you need this and you need this. I said, done. And it brought home the stuff. And that was the drink of the day on that episode, Brad showing John how to make this old fashioned and like all of a sudden he had me hooked. You know, I’ve been making them ever since and that’s what I’m drinking today is a really nice old fashioned but with a twist. This is one with maple syrup. is just chef’s kiss. Awesome.
Matt Brading
Hey, I’ve got no problem with that. I like adding a little bit of sweetness, obviously, whenever I make a cocktail, usually, and an old-fashioned definitely calls for that. I think maple syrup is a really good addition. So cheers to that.
Brad Lowery
It is. What you got, Matt?
Matt Brading
Well, me? See, I’m on location right now. I am in Grapevine, Texas right now. I’m out of town. I’m not in my stomping grounds. So I’ve got minimal supplies with me, right? And so today, I have just Wild Turkey 101 in a cup. Neat. Cheers.
Brad Lowery
There you go, but we’re going to toast to what you are going to be doing there.
Matt Brading
That’s true. So yeah, I’m in town because tomorrow I am speaking from four to six at Oak Highlands Brewery at the BS and beer two year anniversary of the DFW chapter. And I want to explain BS and beer and what that is, cause that can sound like something it’s not. And I don’t think there’s enough people to understand that like the BS in BS and beer stands for building science. The reason why they have this BSNBR meetup and there’s different chapters all throughout the US and even in Canada. They meet up to discuss building practices, building science, and just network together a community of people that like to learn, very smart people that like to teach, and just like to share what they do and what we can do to build better. so yeah, building science, the building science community, they have chapters all throughout the US, like I say, and in Canada. Find one of your local chapters. I encourage inspectors to become a part of this because as inspectors we can learn a ton about what’s going on inside the walls that may be causing the problems that we’re finding during our inspections.
Brad Lowery
I love it, man. That’s fantastic. Anchor grass to you. Let me know how the topic goes. We are we’re going to wait to talk about it on the next episode. Yeah, definitely.
Matt Brading
Thanks. Excellent. And if anybody is in the DFW area tomorrow, that is the 21st of July, four to six, I’ll be speaking at the Oak Highlands Brewery. You’re all welcome. It’s a, anybody can come. So come on out.
Brad Lowery
Fantastic, man, dude, I’m looking forward to it. I’m just sitting here.
Matt Brading
Actually, I guess it’ll be today, because this is going to come out tomorrow, which will be today. This is happening today, Monday. What are you drinking, Brad?
Brad Lowery
Right, yeah, recording it Sunday. Yeah, go guys, show up. So, four to six, man. So I am sitting here in Florida and if y’all see me dabbing here, like I’m full gospel preacher, you know, I’m just getting going a little bit, you know, the Holy Spirit’s just moving. You know, it’s only because my AC’s been out for three days and the part magically doesn’t come in until tomorrow.
Jon Bolton
You
Matt Brading
Can I get an amen?
Brad Lowery
Isn’t it amazing how contractors suddenly the part just shows up on Monday? I bet it was there today, you if I was being honest, but I don’t know. You don’t want to pay for that part. yeah, so.
Matt Brading
That’s how I be. No, you don’t want to pay for that part though. You don’t want to pay for that Sunday part. That Sunday part’s a lot more expensive.
Brad Lowery
That’s it. But I need this a bit extra then because of that. You know, I talked about this in the last episode. It’s a rum old fashioned, which I think, you know, John being as we are Floridians over here, it’s it fits for a culture. I love bourbon. You know, that’s definitely a heart of the country spirit. But when I showed up in Florida and I was looking at the bourbon and whiskey selections and Scotches, I’m like, is dwarfed by
Matt Brading
Definitely.
Brad Lowery
by the rum selection down here. We’re in the Caribbean, man, and we’re in the tropics. So rum old fashioned, it’s on the sweet side. you don’t like sweeter cocktails, it might not be for you, but I think it adds a really different experience to it. Super, super approachable and very dangerous. Because they go down really sweet.
Matt Brading
I have had a tequila old fashioned. I’ve had a tequila old fashioned before. So I can see where like that pivot in alcohol and it doesn’t make a big difference what spirit you choose. Especially, mean, bourbons even, but I mean, like if you go from tequila to, you know, a rum, I can see that being a really big difference and make a really interesting cocktail. I’m looking forward to trying it.
Brad Lowery
It does. Yeah, man, tequila old fashions just get me in trouble and then I express opinions that people don’t like and then it turns into fights, know, which were. Let’s do that. Yeah, maybe that’s what happens online when you see these inspectors they get into keyboard war fights with each other. They all drink it tequila old fashioned y’all need to stop it. Okay, we’re here to elevate the dialogue, not lower it to the lowest common denominator. But anyway.
Matt Brading
Hey, let’s do that, except the fighting part. It’s tequila old fashions, yeah. Yeah, that’s right, that’s right. That’s right. That’s right. Let’s give some
Jon Bolton
Speak up.
Matt Brading
Opinions.
Brad Lowery
Let’s give some opinions. John, we have been talking about PEX plumbing. we had a guest on, Eric Ony last time, master plumber up in Minnesota. And I feel like regionally, that affects different people’s preference in materials, right? His was a preference of a hybrid kind of approach to using copper and PEX. He wasn’t as opposed to it. Down here in Florida, water chemistry is so different.
Jon Bolton
Mm-hmm.
Brad Lowery
Water table and soil content are so different. again, you have a bit more of caution towards it. And you sent us some really, really insightful stuff that kind of supports the position that you made previously when we talked about this on the show, in that this is not a foolproof material.
Jon Bolton
Yeah, that’s true. And you know, the funny part was, and I completely respect your master plumber guy. He does what a lot of us can’t do and I totally respect. Okay, so I don’t mean anything ill towards him whatsoever. And I do realize that there may be some regional differences. Matter of fact, I was talking with Ruben Saltzman one time and he’s in the same Minnesota area, right? And he consulted his plumber on this because we were having the same conversations and his plumber was telling him he doesn’t have some of these issues and some of that makes sense. Okay, there is a long list of issues with PEX and actually let me back up one second and say, listen, I am not here to fight. I’m here to inform. Okay, I’m not I’m not supporting one manufacturer, you know, or one brand, one type of plumbing, copper, CPVC, PVC, anything like that. None of it matters to me. All I want to do is say, hey guys, listen, there’s something going on here and you need to look. But to the regional thing, one of the issues with PEX is fungal growth. Yes, it’s fungal growth inside the piping. And you can find plenty of this stuff online. That’s how I found it. Okay. I didn’t invent any of this stuff. I read about it and I saw and I listened to the plumbers and stuff that are going through it. And I’ve seen the pictures. Matter of fact, we did a PEX discussion not too long ago and I had Jonathan Simon and Gabe, last name’s escaped me right now. They were from FlowGuard Gold manufacturer. Now they know their competitors better than all of us put together, right? So they could talk about, and they were there to talk about technical stuff, chemical stuff, anything like that. He has memorized a lot of these issues in, it could memorize dates and all that, which are irrelevant really to me, to us. The fact is they’re there, but in some of those areas like Minnesota, you don’t have the fungal growth issue as much as you do in Florida, where we are. And I have pictures, I can show you multiple pictures of the stuff, the nasty stuff growing inside these pipes, okay? UV gets through plastic. It doesn’t get through something like copper. Okay, now, and if your temperatures are not as conducive in Minnesota as they are in Florida, well, then maybe you won’t experience that.
Matt Brading
That makes sense.
Brad Lowery
Mm-hmm.
Jon Bolton
As much there. So, okay, all that makes sense. However, there’s so many other things on the list. And I bet you most people sitting here listening going, what are you talking about? Fungal growth. Yes, fungal growth. Mold inside pipes. I have seen it. Again, I can show you the pictures, but I don’t want you to believe me. I want you to go prove it to yourself and find it online. You will find it. It’s readily available information.
Brad Lowery
Wonder, it is the same issue happen in PVC or is it more impermeable to light in both CPVC and PVC?
Matt Brading
Yeah, it seems like it wouldn’t be specific to a pipe. It seems like it would be more water chemistry based than anything.
Jon Bolton
Yeah, no. They don’t have the UV penetration and there’s something else in chemically and that’s where Jonathan Simon can answer that exact question scientifically where they don’t have that issue at all with CPVC, but it’s a chemical thing.
Matt Brading
We’ll have to have a part four with.
Brad Lowery
Yeah, we’re just turning into a part four, but I’m here for it, Well, I’ve seen that like, yeah, I’ve seen, John, I’ve seen that chemical permeability is another issue with PEX as well.
Matt Brading
Jonathan, are you listening?
Jon Bolton
I mean, that’s huge chemical permeability.
Matt Brading
I but I mean, that’s an issue with copper too. mean, maybe to a lesser degree sometimes, but I mean, like the whole Thunder Bay situation is all about, you know, a chemical issue that happened with the water that failed copper fittings. So I mean, like, you know, yeah, yeah, I know, I know.
Jon Bolton
Again, I’m not here to support and defend anybody, but the chemical permeation is a huge issue. Way back in the day, California contracted a lab and stuff to do these studies, and they were able to measure. So these are guys with lab coats and powerful microscopes and all this stuff. They can measure chemicals down to parts per billion. And they were measuring all of these chemicals that you can’t even pronounce. It doesn’t make any difference. I can name them, but some of them anyway, but it doesn’t make any difference. They measure them to the parts per billion. And what was allowed by California code at the time and what they were measuring was like 10 times the amount allowed. Some of the chemicals come out of the pipe. Some of the chemicals come through the pipe. In Florida, we don’t have to worry about freezing. So some of our pipes are outside. So you’ll have the pipe go underground, come up and then go into the house. That exposed part, then all of sudden you get the yard guy and he’s spraying for bugs and ants and weeds and whatever else. They prove those chemicals can leach through. This is an EIR study, environmental impact report. And very, very interesting thing about this environmental report, they have all these stats, right? And where they measure all this stuff. And then one day, poof. It’s gone. And you’re like.
Brad Lowery
Like the Epstein files? No, I’m sorry. Maybe we had it up or down.
Jon Bolton
Something like that. All
Matt Brading
Yeah.
Jon Bolton
of sudden we’re gone. And it’s been replaced with another EIR. So if you’re going online looking for this EIR report, the one you’re going to find says it’s all rainbows and unicorns. There’s nothing wrong. You’re going, wait, wait, wait, wait a second. Somebody in lab coat just measured it and told me.
Brad Lowery
Well, it’s a big issue here because we, in so many of the properties around here, sprinkler systems and irrigation systems use reclaimed water. That’s not fully treated.
Jon Bolton
Maybe that could contribute to the fungus among us on the interior. I don’t know.
Matt Brading
Right, I mean, if it’s in the soil, I mean, it’s getting through to the pipe. Yeah. I mean, that’s a possibility.
Brad Lowery
But the big one, John, that I…
Jon Bolton
But I don’t think they’re using PEX for irrigation. I think they’re using PERT and straight up polyethylene.
Matt Brading
Yeah, but if your pipe is coming in, if your water is getting fed in, I mean, what’s that getting fed in with from the city?
Brad Lowery
If that’s coming city if it’s coming copper from the city or yeah something else
Matt Brading
It’s that copper.
Jon Bolton
Yeah, I don’t know, could be. But I’ve got a picture I can show you where you can actually visually see, okay, because I know a lot of people are visual learners, as am I. You can see when they print the information on the pipe and it has all kinds of where it was made and age and all that stuff, you can watch that ink go through the plastic to the water. You can see it. I’ll show you the picture. So chemical permeation is absolutely huge.
Matt Brading
Yeah.
Brad Lowery
Sure. But the big thing too, John, that this is honestly number one that stood out to me when you wrote in kind of in response to the last episode. I can’t remember if it was said that there were no PEX lawsuits in last 10 years or not, but you gave evidence of the fact that there are several that are still underway. But these go back as far as 2013, and then there’s been one every year since 2021 .
Jon Bolton
I think that’s the truth. Let me I want to I can’t wait to address that. Let me say one thing real quick because I want somebody that attacked me big time on this the chemical permeation things is you just get a water treatment system. So I go maybe there’s instead of attacking him. I said maybe there’s something to this. I don’t know. I am not this chemical water expert. I don’t claim to be so I looked into it and what I found was there is no system that is going to completely eliminate all the the stuff out of the water. And if you’ve got something that was really close, it would be more expensive than just re-plumbing. So it doesn’t make any sense, okay?
Matt Brading
Yeah, I mean, it’s reverse osmosis, I think does that. But I mean, like, you don’t want reverse osmosis for your entire house. That’s the reason why people don’t do that.
Jon Bolton
It will never, nothing does 100% gets rid of 100% of the chemicals in the water. That’s from what I have read. Okay. And again,
Matt Brading
RO doesn’t? I thought RO did. I mean, I don’t have any facts on that. I just thought RO did that.
Jon Bolton
Yeah, me neither. So, but as far as the lawsuits, what I sent you specifically was the last years because the master plumber said, oh, well, it’s that we haven’t had really had any problems in the last 10 years. And I went like, that’s not true. It’s just patently untrue. These lawsuits have been happening for a very, very long time. So what I sent you was just the ones in the last 10 years. But did you guys know that every major PEX manufacturer has had a minimum of one class action lawsuit.
Brad Lowery
That’s fascinating. again, I want to be fair here because I’m, I can’t say that there have been, but I’m sure that previously, you know, used materials have as well from CPVC to galvanize to copper. So if you know of any, let’s have a fair discussion, drop them in the chat, but John’s not wrong. And I can read these off to you here. So go ahead, Matt.
Matt Brading
Well.
But I mean,
I just want to emphasize that. I mean, not all of them, but I think where this really this conversation, at least where this conversation and kind of where we took it with Eric was the comparison of polybutyly to PEX piping. And there’s two things I want to mention here. And one is, I mean, at least most of the class action lawsuits in the last 10 years on PEX, not all of them.
Brad Lowery
Mm-hmm.
Matt Brading
but a good chunk of them have been in relation to fittings, mostly to brass, and then which, I mean, is understandable. I mean, not acceptable, but understandable. I mean, comparison of PB to PEX, we’re talking about a billion dollars versus like three quarters of a million. I mean, that’s a lot of money. Don’t get me wrong, it’s a lot of lawsuits, but I just don’t think that…
Brad Lowery
There’s.
Matt Brading
that it really, don’t think we can compare the two because it’s just.
Jon Bolton
Absolutely.
PEX is a polyolefin based plastic. Guess what else is a polyolefin based plastic?
Brad Lowery
PB.
Matt Brading
Yeah, I get that.
Jon Bolton
I’ll be
Matt Brading
But
Jon Bolton
in one.
Matt Brading
I think it’s, think we are talking about two different systems altogether. I mean, the amount of lawsuits and the amount of money paid out for PB is exponentially larger than anything that has happened in the entire life of and they’ve been around about the same period of, mean, different periods, but the same amount of years, right? PB was like,
Jon Bolton
Again, again. No, no, there.
Brad Lowery
Let me read these off to you real
quick. Let me read these off to you real quick, Matt. So these are the ones that Johnson in. So 2013, there was a case filed. was Cole versus NIBCOing.
Jon Bolton
Thank
Matt Brading
Go ahead.
Over years ago, but.
Brad Lowery
Yeah, 2013. Yeah, we’ll get to the rest. That was the core allegation was that PEX tubing brass fitting. So you got it there and stainless clamps oxidize and de-zincify and leak. And 2021 only four years ago, four years ago, this was Brasswell versus Bow Plumbing Group. had white bow PEX tubing oxidizes and fails that paid out 8 million August 29, 2024. Then 2023 it was Currico versus as a Uponor oxidative degeneration of Uponor PEX pipe. Court denied the motion to dismiss and the discovery is still underway as of March of 2025. Then I missed this one here 2021 again, Matt Storr versus Uponor. So Uponor again brought up here. Pipe cracking was another issue with that one. Australia had one in 2024 that was hot water PEX lines were rupturing. And then 2025 here, this was McCoy versus upon her again. So you hear that name keep coming up. Micro cracks and oxidation in red, white and blue aqua PEX piping. The biggest one that was paid out. And this one is still ongoing and this is coming back to once again, desyncifying fittings. There’s a fund of 125 million for it with final payments issued this month. those, John, those are the ones just that you sent in there.
Jon Bolton
Those are just in the last 10 years. And then I sent you like four of them that are ongoing where they’re still doing, there’s a whole law process and I don’t understand it. It’s all I can explain is it’s in the process. But in 2021, was the lawsuit against Upanore was categorized by the construction, yeah, categorized by the construction defect center as possibly the largest effective plumbing recall in US history.
Matt Brading
Yeah.
Brad Lowery
open or can that’s how you pronounce it sorry
Matt Brading
Oopen, open or yeah.
Jon Bolton
That’s just that one, okay? However, I don’t care. It really doesn’t matter. The point is there’s issues with this PEX. So why would you ignore all this stuff? To me, that’s like ignoring the cracks in the foundation and then being surprised if the house falls down. It doesn’t make any sense. Let’s look into this, right? Instead of ignoring, honest to God, I think if you ignore it, that’s professional negligence.
Matt Brading
Well, it’s a tip. Well, but mean, like, is there, we have issues with other pipes too. Like, what do you think the solution is? I think that’s really where, like we have to pivot. if, if, if, PEX has all these problems, then what’s the, what’s the solution?
Jon Bolton
I don’t know. I am not sitting here to try to say this is the solution. That’s not my job. My job is to go, hey, guys and gals, you need to look into this. OK? Yeah, so you can sit here and make arguments a little. Anyway, you can sit here and make the arguments. It doesn’t make any difference. There are issues with PEX. And I think everybody needs to have some type of disclosure statement, whatever you are comfortable with.
Matt Brading
Yeah. Well, I just…
Brad Lowery
It’s not foolproof is what you’re saying.
Matt Brading
Yeah.
Jon Bolton
I don’t care if you use ours or not. You don’t hurt my feelings. And you don’t get to me when you insult me. I’m too old to give a crap. So, you know, it doesn’t matter to me. I want you to go discover and I want you to come up with some kind of disclosure. Is that fair?
Matt Brading
I don’t know.
Brad Lowery
That’s, that makes sense. I get where you’re coming from.
Jon Bolton
you
Matt Brading
I mean, it makes sense, but I just, you know, the one thing that I, I mean, look, I’m not saying that your findings and your opinions are not based in facts or at least, you know, things that you have read. But I mean, I don’t, I would have to do my own research before I considered any type of disclaimer because I don’t want to be a fear monger. And I really think that like, you know, I
Jon Bolton
Good. Good.
Matt Brading
You know, there are an awful lot of people buying houses with PEX and there are an awful lot of houses being repiped with PEX. And if we throw some type of strong disclaimer out there, mean, look, it’s not, I put in a disclaimer about federal Pacific electric. I don’t think we’re in the same category personally.
Jon Bolton
think it’s worse because there’s more. There’s more of it.
Matt Brading
I see. I don’t I don’t I don’t I don’t have any I don’t think I can back that up. I don’t feel like I could back that up as being worse.
Brad Lowery
Now, I think we’re looking at a question of where’s the line at what point we call it out, right? That’s our thing as inspectors. It’s like, when do you call it out? Where do you call it out? We call out polybutylene because it was banned, right, as a material. So do you call it out in advance of that or do you call it out after it’s no longer an approved material?
Matt Brading
Yeah. Right. Same with FPE.
Jon Bolton
It was not bad. It’s not bad. You can use it. Listen, we have gone through this with so many other things and everybody made the same exact arguments with FPE, with polybutylene, with Bulldog, with Zinsko, with whatever. Okay. They make the same exact arguments and then time will tell. And then all of a you prove it. I’ve lived through the whole polybutylene thing. I’ve been doing inspections since . All right. I’ve lived through that whole thing where we’re going, we’re starting to learn about poly. You’re going, holy cow, are you kidding?
Matt Brading
Sure.
Jon Bolton
But it’s so everybody’s using it. We all use the same argument. Everybody’s using it and it’s so awesome. And it does all these things and saves so much time and et cetera. And it did nothing but get worse and worse and worse, right? Answer me this. In Florida specifically, insurance is a huge deal. it’s recently citizens has added PEX specifically to their form. If there were no issues with PEX, we would not be seeing this on the insurance forms. And I have had for years and years ago, people still calling the office going, hey, I’m getting canceled. My insurance is getting canceled because I have PEX or they’re giving me so much time before I have to replumb. Why didn’t you tell me this? We have had disclosures for a long time. Now, again, come up with your own disclosure. Hold on, Matt, come up with your own disclosure. Even if it’s something as simple as some systems have had issues, I recommend you look into this yourself. Something simple that Matt feels comfortable with.
Matt Brading
But that’s not our job. Yeah. But I mean, like determining insurability, at least in Texas, isn’t our job. So, I mean, like, I don’t really see that.
Jon Bolton
Is that fair? It’s very much our job with Florida.
Brad Lowery
Is it?
Jon Bolton
Okay? But again, I’m not here to argue that point. Yes, but I’m not here to argue the point. It’s instruments. Dude, you can get denied for debris in your gutter.
Matt Brading
Is it? I didn’t know that. Well, mean, well, I mean, insurance is huge. Yeah, no, I get that. Like insurance is huge. That’s a big deal to a homeowner, but determining insurability, at least by Texas standards, that isn’t what we do. And so and so, you know, it wouldn’t that wouldn’t be I mean, I know that you guys do have some different inspections that are related specifically to insurance that we don’t do here. You know, when Mets and whatnot.
Jon Bolton
You understood. Understood, but my point is that you have a major insurer that has recognized there’s issues with it and they don’t want to pay the claims. That’s what it boils down to is the money. They don’t want to pay the claims. Okay, so I’m telling you it is PEX is an issue and there’s a lot of them. You have the chemical permeation, you have the oxidation, the chlorination degradation, the fungal growth. There’s so many things and speaking of chlorination degradation, 98% of the United States
treats their water, sanitizes their water with some form of chlorine. Okay? If you’re lucky enough to be in that 2%, God bless you, that’s fantastic. But 98 % of municipalities sanitize their water with some type of chlorine, chloramines, chlorine dioxide, and the chlorine dioxide has now, PEX has come out and says, oh, if you are using chlorine dioxide to sanitize your water, don’t use our product. It’s in their, it’s in, they typed it, not me, okay? And the number of facilities that are changing from other chlorine type of sanitization stuff to this chlorine dioxide is growing. Huge, very, very large numbers. So even if today you’re not in that category where they’re using the chlorine dioxide, you might be tomorrow, next week, next year.
Brad Lowery
So maybe a comp here, would be almost like that. Matt, I don’t know if they have this in Texas. I encountered it plenty up in Virginia and DC. But like Atlas Chalet shingle, where it was made to look like architectural shingle, but it fell apart in no time. And now I don’t. I can’t speak to a ban being in place on it. Maybe after a while there was, but it was something that I called out anytime that I found it just because it was known to have issues, even though I found instances of its use. So maybe this is something that we’re looking at where it’s kind of going the route. We haven’t quite reached a polybutylene ban on PEX, but it might be something where it’s like there’s known defects just as there were with that with Shelly shingles. Is that something?
Jon Bolton
Let me ask you this, can the product get better over time?
Brad Lowery
I guess it would depend on the chemical makeup, wouldn’t it?
Matt Brading
Well, I
Jon Bolton
Nothing
Matt Brading
mean,
Jon Bolton
gets better over time. Nothing. Right?
Matt Brading
Well, I mean, mean, it can be manufactured to do.
Brad Lowery
I thought you meant like for new iterations.
Jon Bolton
I’m sorry, you meant what?
Matt Brading
I think he’s saying like, we learn things about the pipe and we correct things about the pipe. And then I think it can be manufactured better over time, possibly, or installed better over time. mean, if leaching is a problem, you can sleeve it. There are practices that could help reduce things that are happening.
Jon Bolton
Matter fact, that’s what California called for back in the original EIR. They said, okay, if you’re going to use it, then you have to sleeve it. And it was codified for a while. And then the plastic industry, whatever fought back in California, ran out of money. Go figure, right? And so that kind of died out. But okay, if you can solve a problem or maybe the fungal growth problem, maybe you can solve some of those issues with that.
Matt Brading
Yeah.
Jon Bolton
You still have others. So again, my point is, guys, there’s a long list of issues here and you need to look into them and come up with your disclosure.
Matt Brading
Well, so, but yeah, I, yeah, I don’t know. I mean, that would be like me disclosing builders that have known issues with their builds. I don’t, I don’t. Yeah, I don’t actually, but I mean like, but no, I mean like some people do, right? But I mean like, I, I, I feel like that’s what it’s like, you know? And I think, I think it’s so, a lot of the things are region specific.
Brad Lowery
You just do that on TikTok.
Matt Brading
fitting specific, installation specific. And so I just wonder as inspectors, mean, look, I want to provide my clients with the best possible inspection money can buy. But I also, I mean, I could freak them out literally about almost everything about their home. And I mean, you know, a lot of this, a lot of things, I think come down to what someone can afford. There’s a lot of things to factor in. mean, if someone’s buying a house from the 70s and it’s got galvanized pipe in it, they are bound to have, I mean, it is not a matter of if, it is a matter of when they are going to have catastrophic problems of some sort. And so they need to consider repiping. They, you know, a standard 2,500 square foot house, you’re looking at six to $12,000 to put PEX in. You’re looking at 15 to $30,000 to put copper in. Like, I don’t know. And then, and then there’s a factor of at least here, like in 2021, we never, we’re kind of like Florida. We don’t freeze, but in 2021, we, we froze, right? A lot of people want to act like that’s a really big deal. And it was for us at the time, but it was like a 500 year situation. We’re not gonna change our entire building practices based on this one event. But what pipe held up during that time? PEX. Everything else, especially copper, busted. A lot of catastrophic flooding situations happened in homes that had metal pipes. I mean, some PVC too, but know, galvanized obviously, which is a problem. I don’t even wanna include that in there because it’s such a anyway, but copper had a lot of problems. And PEX had a few, but…Not really. And so I just think there’s so many things to factor in.
Jon Bolton
Understood. But listen, and a lot of this degradation is from the inside out. Okay, so you’re looking at it and it looks fine. The exact same defense that somebody with a Zinsko panel goes, well look, it’s been there for 20, 30, 40, 50 years, John, we’ve never had an issue with it. You might and you might not know it, you can’t see it. So when you look at these things under a microscope, some of them you don’t even need in the microscope, you can see radial cracks. I can show you numerous images of the cracks and maybe you can’t see it from the surface.
Matt Brading
Sure. Well, I…
Jon Bolton
And when is it going to reach that crack going to reach from the center to the surface? When’s it going to reach that tomorrow, next week, next month, next year? Who knows? The point is you said you want to provide the best possible product. Then you are you, it’s your responsibility to look into this and read about it, get educated on it and come up with some type of disclosure because I don’t want to see Matt get sued over something that only took you a sentence to say, Hey, listen, I’ve done some research and there are some issues associated with this. Here’s some websites or here’s additional things for you to look into because it’s not our job to tell people to buy, not buy, anything else like that. Educate.
Brad Lowery
It’s just to educate, that’s what you’re saying.
Matt Brading
I I get that. I mean, like, I think that, like, as inspectors, like, I don’t think, I don’t know, it’s hard for me to say that this this disclaimer is protecting us from any type of lawsuit. I mean, it is, we’re responsible for telling what kind of pipe the house has, but I don’t, I mean, I don’t see how it’s, I mean, it’s, it’s covering us for sure to have some type of, I could see that. But I mean, I don’t know at what cost. I mean, there’s like a there’s like a 90% chance no matter what house somebody buys out here, they’re buying it with PEX. And so I don’t, but I don’t see where we’re liable.
Brad Lowery
You can. It’s almost, mean, Matt, almost sounds like you’re kind of, again, this is not to discredit, you know, what John has been saying and the evidence that he’s been presenting, but it’s almost like, where do you make the line on disclaimers? Because I could in Florida go look at a 20 to 25 year shingle. And we know in Florida, John, that that thing is going to last maybe 15 tops because we
Matt Brading
Yeah, no, we’re just talking. Yeah. It’s the same here.
Brad Lowery
We cook through shingles. Yeah, we cook through shingles, right? So if you don’t, if somebody assumes because the homeowner told them when they bought it, yeah, that’s a 30 year shingle. And then they find out five years in, wait, it was 10 years old and now I have to replace it. Well, my home inspector should have told me, I mean, do you make a note? Hey, we live in Florida, maybe consider getting metal or concrete tile or anything that’s not asphalt shingle or
Matt Brading
Yeah, yeah, it’s same here.
Brad Lowery
You know, what do you, what do you say? Mean, where do you draw a line on that?
Jon Bolton
You know what’s interesting? As I’ve researched some of this stuff, I’ve gone into plumber forums to see what they have to say about it. And I will tell you what plumbers have to say about it. 50% of them love it, 50% of them hate it. OK? So ask your plumber and you’re going to whatever. You’re going to get an opinion. But look at the evidence. Look at all these settled cases. Look at all this stuff. You cannot ignore it. OK? Do you know when chlorine degradation starts? This is a thought I’ve meant to finish before. Immediately.
Brad Lowery
Mm-hmm.
Matt Brading
Yeah.
Jon Bolton
After I did this presentation at our state association one time, and I had all kinds of people upset, go figure, right? But this one young lady, Megan Keith, her niche is 11 month. She lives in an area where everything’s new. And that’s her niche, 11 month inspections. And she’s like, my God, this is what I’m seeing. Now she understands it. again, I can show you numerous images of chlorine degradation, what it looks like. And you need to know what to look for, that popcorning and that yellowing of the pipe, that’s chlorine degradation or chlorination degradation, whatever you want to call that. Yeah.
Matt Brading
Can I ask you a question? Where are you seeing the pipe?
Jon Bolton
We see the pipe all over the place in the garage, the attic, because it’s all exposed.
Matt Brading
How? See, I mean, there’s very little pipe exposed and usually almost none unless it’s always covered with insulation or pipe insulation.
Jon Bolton
So if you can’t see it, does it make it untrue? Of course not. Okay. The good thing is I can see it and I can show you the pictures. The pipes eventually turn yellow. They start what they call popcorning and you get in yellow spots. That is chlorination degradation, which occurs on the interior. you see, first of all, PEX is inherently incompatible with chlorine treated water, which is where I was going with the 98% of the country.
Matt Brading
I’m not saying that, I’m just asking how you’re seeing it.
Jon Bolton
is using that. So they have to add antioxidants to it so it doesn’t break down as fast. Well, all of these things accelerate that process. Heat, you know, you, Mr. Plummer, mentioned heat, the exposure, obviously, the chlorine, those kinds of things, just to accelerate it. So if you had it, if you kept it away from heat, would that prolong it? Yeah, maybe. OK, but again, it does not make any difference. There are these issues exist and I don’t make them up. You can read them for yourself. I’ll be happy to provide resources for you to read yourself. it’s everybody’s obligation as a home inspector if our job is to provide some clarification of something so somebody can make an informed decision. That’s all I’m asking.
Brad Lowery
Yeah, that seems to be what you’re getting at right there. It’s educating about what information is available.
Jon Bolton
Right, right. You know what? I was mentioning a year earlier this everybody is aware that the old 410A refrigerant is going out and the what was it 454B or and some 32 and something. OK, so there’s whatever this new refrigerant is coming out. It’s codified. It’s all over the country. And what if I sat here and told you, holy cow, did you see all the fires that are happening because of this refrigerant? And all of a sudden they’re combusting. Systems are combusting.
Matt Brading
Yeah.
Jon Bolton
Would you sit there and say, yeah, but wait a minute, they’re installing all over the United States, so I’m going to ignore everything you’re telling me. Well, that would be ignorant, right? Now, hold on, right? I’m right. You would have to go, wow, well, let me look into this. Let me read these news stories. Let me read this and find out, is this a regional thing? Your obligation would be to educate yourself and find out about it, is my point.
Matt Brading
I mean I don’t think that’s what I’m saying.
Brad Lowery
Yeah, I see what you’re saying.
Matt Brading
I don’t think that’s what I’m saying. I don’t think that’s the point I’m trying to make. I’m trying to figure out how to articulate it. But if someone is going to buy a house, OK, all right. If you want to talk about the refrigerant, if someone’s going to buy a house within a certain time frame, it’s going to have that. If someone’s going to buy a house right now, whether it’s new or in the last five or six years, it’s almost 100% going to have PEX in it. And so, I could, I could, I could, I’m not saying it does. I’m not saying it does, but does it make me a better inspector to tell them, hey, this, this product is probably going to fail on you at some point. and to tell them that, I mean, is it, I mean, I don’t know. We’re, we’re, that’s speculation, but that’s
Jon Bolton
So it doesn’t make Peck better. That argument doesn’t make Peck better. Isn’t that your job? Isn’t that all of our job? They’re making decisions based on information and all we’re doing is providing information.
Matt Brading
But that’s speculation. We don’t know if any of that’s going to happen. Well, it don’t. But no, you’ve read about specific.
Jon Bolton
It’s not speculation, that’s false. It’s not speculation. Read it. Lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit, years and years and years, more than the 10 years that we’re talking about. It’s proven. The scientists have proven all this stuff with their fancy magnifying glasses and all this stuff. It’s all proven. The chemical permeation, UV degradation, chlorination degradation, oxidation, the fungal growth. It goes on and on and on.
Brad Lowery
I-
Matt Brading
I don’t know, man. I don’t know.
Brad Lowery
It’s let’s kick it to the audience here because I think this is a great place because again, you guys have been sounding off on this for the past six months on two episodes. This is now the third we’re doing on it. So we want to hear respectfully. We want to hear y’all’s opinion as an inspector. Are you guys calling this out? Do you have a disclaimer? What are you saying in that disclaimer? And again, let’s say let’s open this up. Is this something that’s specific to PEX alone or are you guys aware of any lawsuits that have applied to CPVC? And PVC or any materials before that. Where do we draw the line as inspectors on what we call out, what we don’t, what disclaimers we use, and basically what we go through and approve of or alert buyers to? Drop it in the comments. Please share this with other inspectors so we can get them to buy in on this as well, because I want this to be a community-wide discussion. And we welcome y’all’s opinions here, for sure.
Jon Bolton
Yeah, and please make it a discussion. Okay, don’t sit here and say, it’s installed everywhere. Therefore, okay, that’s not an argument. You know what saying?
Matt Brading
For sure. I don’t want it to be that’s not the argument that I’m making. I just think that like, say this and I so I freaked them out and now what are they going to do? If you put some scary disclaimer in your report about this, what are they going to do?
Brad Lowery
What’s the solution for them basically?
Jon Bolton
Okay, well then don’t. Then don’t do that. I’m saying there are ramifications for ignoring it. When I was going through a lot of these forms and stuff reading about it, because again, I didn’t come up with this opinion. Everybody else, the facts did, the lawsuits did. I’m finding all kinds of complaints from consumers. My inspector didn’t tell me. And they’re making social media posts. I can’t get insurance because…
Matt Brading
No, no, no, no, no, no. I’m just, we are just discussing this. I know you didn’t.
Jon Bolton
The inspector missed it. You can find those too. I did not make this up. I’ll let you read them. So, so, so, hey, it is what it is. There’s ramifications of the morning.
Matt Brading
But did the inspector miss it? But did the inspector miss it?
Jon Bolton
It doesn’t matter.
Matt Brading
It does. It matters a great deal to the inspector.
Jon Bolton
It doesn’t matter if the consumer is mad and they’re making social media posts about it. It doesn’t matter whether you’re right or wrong. They are going to make the social media post.
Matt Brading
100% matters.
Brad Lowery
So maybe.
Matt Brading
You know, it matters. We have our job has limitations. It is very clear.
Brad Lowery
What if you, okay, but here’s a solution middle of the road here guys. What if you just the same way that we have a life expectancy or at least in my reports, I put a life expectancy on appliances and materials, right? Roof, kitchen appliances, heating and cooling, water heaters. I put life expectancies. When it comes to plumbing, can we say for a fact, hey, you might be good with this for 20 to 30 years. It’s rated for a 50 year life expectancy, but there are known issues that could cause the life expectancy to be shortened. Just you need to be aware.
Matt Brading
Yeah, yeah.
Jon Bolton
What if you said life expectancy may vary?
Matt Brading
I mean, I suppose so.
Brad Lowery
That could work.
Matt Brading
Yeah, yeah.
Jon Bolton
I don’t care what you say, I just want to protect you. That’s all.
Brad Lowery
Now we’re, but that’s where we’re getting that. Like what I think Matt was driving home at is, is what, what can we do with this information that helps the buyer? I think that’s what he was really getting at. So, I mean, I feel like that’s a good solution right there where you can give a life expectancy or simply say that it varies due to known conditions.
Matt Brading
Yeah.
Brad Lowery
That may be affected by your water, have a water test done to clarify quality in your area. mean, you could, because again, that goes beyond the scope of the inspection there, but that’s something that you could do if you really, really want to know the nuts and bolts of your home is what kind of effect is the water quality having on the piping in your home? It could be completely different. mean, we’re talking, John, we’re talking in Florida in a place where, you know, water is treated with chlorine, but is this going to apply on a private well system? That’s mineral rich and fairly clean, you know?
Jon Bolton
You know, that’s funny you mentioned that because that’s a great question. I don’t have the technical answer to it, but in one of these forums, a guy, and I use this in my presentation. I’ve got a two hour presentation on PEX. All these facts, and I show you the pictures, the lawsuits, you read it for yourself. But one of the guys that responds, goes, I’m having all these problems, the leaks, et cetera, et cetera. I’m on a well. Some of these leaks are coming from mechanical stresses. That’s another one of the weak points. When you start, you know, bragging and show how you can bend this stuff you’re causing that’s the impetus of the crack development
Brad Lowery
But that could go back
Matt Brading
Sure, that’s installation.
Brad Lowery
Or it can even go back to a pressure reducing valve that’s oversized for the capacity of the home or for the pipe. that, again, if it’s over pressurizing the pipe, that’s going to cause failures no matter what material you’re using.
Jon Bolton
Yeah, I don’t recall any pressure issues with PEX, that being part of the defect. It’s all been the, and we’ve talked a lot about the pipe because that’s where people are saying, well, it’s only the fittings. It’s only de-zincification in the brass fittings causing occlusion and et cetera, et cetera. It’s not just the fittings. And you know, back in God, 10, 15 years ago, whatever it was, when everybody was learning about de-zincification, what is that?
Matt Brading
Yeah, mean, failures can happen.
Jon Bolton
Well, that was something we learned and it was the F-1807 CuPEX issues. Then there was a lawsuit after that that said for all the other bright brass fittings. So it’s not just the F-1807s, it’s all the other ones. A of lawsuits, done. So again, it’s not fittings, it’s fittings and pipes. some of these lawsuits even include the stainless steel ones. One of the manufacturers I forget right now, tuck my head, stopped manufacturing those stainless steel fittings because of failures. I can’t go on and on and on. My point is guys and gals, read for yourself, come up with a disclosure that you are comfortable with because I don’t want to get you sued. If you do, well, that’s your own. If you choose to ignore, if you choose to not say anything, you might get away with it, but you might not.
Brad Lowery
Now, John, we appreciate it. Seriously, man. This has been a ton of information. And again, you know, it’s yeah, very helpful, very educational. And we want to kick it back to the comments, you know, guys, sound sign, which I was against sound off in the comments on your take on this, what you’ve read and researched yourself. it verify everything that John’s saying? Have you seen what he’s seeing? And if you’re using disclaimers, what are you saying? How are you warning it? And if, I was, yeah, go ahead.
Matt Brading
For real. I want to say, I want to say something, I mean, like, regardless of the fact that we may have some difference of opinions or, or, whether or not I choose to disclose this or how I choose to disclose this or how you choose to disclose this, I have learned some things for you today and I appreciate your commentary. I appreciate your take on everything. I appreciate you being on here and I like that we can have these types of discussions. Even if friction occurs, we learn something from that friction and I do intend to be the very best inspector I can be. And whether or not it’s a consideration of something like a disclosure like this and everyone else out there, whether you choose to do this or like Brad was saying earlier, some type of life expectancy, these types of conversations, we have to have these so that we can be the best we can be. I’m fortunate to be a part of this conversation. I thank both of you.
Jon Bolton
Thank you. I appreciate that and I got an idea. I got a great idea. What if you had some kind of contest and use chat GPT if you want. See who can come up with the best disclosure.
Matt Brading
Let’s do it.
Brad Lowery
Best disclosure. Come up with the best disclosure. Yeah. Hey, post them in the comments. Seriously. And look, you guys can go in and like it. Right? One with the most likes, dude, we’ll send a gift card. We’ll send some TRA swag, something bad. That’d be pretty cool. Because we’re gonna we got some TRA swag that we’re rolling out here at some point soon.
Matt Brading
There you go.
Jon Bolton
Everybody wants a t-shirt, right? A Ride Along t-shirt.
Brad Lowery
Yeah, man. Definitely.
Matt Brading
All right, free stuff, yeah.
Brad Lowery
Well, the funny here’s what’s funny guys. Like when we jumped on we were like, hey, let’s just make this it’s a Sunday we’re recording. We all want to get in or enjoy the rest of our weekends. We’re like, this is just going to be a short one. No, we’re at 50 minutes now. Like, yeah, it’s been good. That’s it, man. That’s it. Get a little drink involved. We get talking shop and here we are in almost an hour. So, john, thank you for being here, man. We really appreciate it. Thank you everybody so much for watching.
Matt Brading
Yeah, it’s just how it happens.
Brad Lowery
Enjoy your Monday. If you’re listening to this, go check out Matt’s presentation. It’s Dallas, right, Matt? Yep.
Matt Brading
Yes, that’s right.
DFW, actually, Richardson is the specific location.
Brad Lowery
Go check that out, four to six. Otherwise, we’ll see you right here next time on.
Matt Brading
The Ride Along.